Diary of a Stillborn Grant Baby - By Dwight Jenkins --- Continued.....
The previous Post is running a bit long so let's continue the comments here. I've uploaded the comments to YouTube on the subject from the 8/15/12 Board meeting by Ray Mooney, Keith Langley, Phil Malone, Sue Mangold and Rick Matters. Ms. O'Brien did not address the matter. From what I hear from the comments, the direction is still an open question and all the numbers are not in yet. (Probably not worth much to some readers, but I have also included a couple of my own comments on the process.)
http://youtu.be/7CHjUTbSheQ Ray and Keith
http://youtu.be/f18Sd2rmsAY DJ#1
http://youtu.be/jfMVZ_QKKdk Malone
http://youtu.be/Dsa_yxruGT0 DJ#2
http://youtu.be/u4Ag_Quatos Sue and Keith
http://youtu.be/0Ri7OPAm1rI Matters
That's great stuff Don. Despite the fact that some, even on that board, would like to paint us as politically motivated, I think it comes down to something very, very basic: it was a money grab. A great big 'ole $400,000 state grant was laid in our lap if we promised to use it for work toward Local Government Efficiency, i.e. working with the County for a bypass solution. Hate to be cynical but I am: I don't think we ever had any intentions of actually building a bypass. There was free money on the table that was able to be used for dispensing favors, awarding contracts to certain companies or individuals, etc. Basic politics, in other words. Then DEC came along and blew the whole party up early because they got embarrassed by Bill Lambdin in that Q&A with the EPA down by the river. Local control was always the option of choice because it was a strip-club, make it rain in here money-maker for the town, as OSC noted in their 2008 audit: unrepaid interfund borrowing. I think I can state with 100% confidence that none us cares who handles the waste. We just want what's best for our wallets. If that's expansion, fine, but certainly nothing in the past pointed that way. I think it's completely irresponsible to state that sharing information with the public slows the process down. That's patently ridiculous. My own contacts at the County say they CAN handle the sewage. Maybe yes, maybe no, but this board fights so we won't know. Dwight
ReplyDeleteIf any of you notice their responce seems like stone walling to me.
ReplyDeleteThat is the way things have always been done in this town.. Cover up...
they should call them the cover up gang
Agree Dwight.. You hit the head on the nail once more!
You guys ever think about running for the town board yourselfs.
Between you and Don Johnson you would have this town in tip top shape in no time..
All you have to do is find yeah a couple of yesers around town, which shouldn't be too hard to do.. and you got your board..
Way I see it, the town couldn't be run any worse then it has been and i think you two have more on the ball then the rest of the idiots we are paying for.
Anyone else notice how attentive Sue Mangold is while Matters is talking. How rude. Why isn't she adding anything to the mix. See, these guys could care less about East Greembush.. What a group of do nothings.
ReplyDeleteYou would think that you were viewing a 4th grade class talking about the sewerage.. Not professionals trying to slove a problem for residents.
Malone said, "We need to dictate our own future." I wonder whose future he was referring to. Remember that word, dictate.
ReplyDeleteMangold comments in essence were, we're seeking a solution that will be the least cost to residents. We're thinking of the residents first. Conflict of interest came to my mind here.
Mr. Supervisor said, we'll share more info in time. When???
Matters said something to the affect that we're in the dark on the bypass issue.
Seems like the solution to fix the poop mess is still in the toilet.
O'Brien was ever so silent. Amazingly silent. Breathtakingly silent. Perhaps wonderfully silent.
Do not be deceived gadflies, her silence was not because she lacked words to speak. It was calculated silence.
In her silence, her voice was heard loud and clear. Give that some thought gadflies.
Here is a story the Gadflies will get a kick out of. While vacationing in Virginia last week there was a Fire Chiefs vehicle staying in the same area, and it just so happens that this Fire Chief had driven his vehicle all the way from NY, Mineola NY that is.
ReplyDeleteHere we thought that EG was the only town to waste tax payer money. This guy took it upon himself to drive a vehicle owned by the tax payers seven and a half to eight hours from where it belongs. Now we have heard of Chief's taking their vehicles to work, but this is a little beyond that don't you think?
Dwight, Don, Ray I know its not our town but is there anything I/we can do about this, anyone to contact?
JIM an East Greenbush Chief's car was spotted in New Jersey not to long ago not on Fire District Business and he got away with it
ReplyDeleteNo he didn't !
DeleteJim and Anonymous....Isn't this the kind of thing that can potentially happen when the "oversight" of resources and property is in the hands of friends and neighbors who really don't want to embarrass somebody or manage the resources they have responsibility for? I think this is a pretty common experience and could be characterized as "the way we've always done it." Heard that before around here? Yup, you have. Probably won't stop anywhere until those responsible legally follow their responsibility. The problem is that the costs are carried by all the taxpayers in a particular district, and I'd guess that any potential liability might be carried by taxpayers too.
ReplyDeleteJim---you may want to consider contacting the NYS Assoc of Fire Chiefs. They are headquartered in Schodack--across from the Tractor Supply Company. A visit there may provide guidance to the next steps.
ReplyDeleteFrom the Aug. 30 Times Union:
ReplyDelete"...an impulse remains in state government to let powerful, influential, or otherwise well connected people off the hook for misconduct that would ruin an ordinary person."
What comes to mind around East Greenbush that would make the above statement pertinent?
Stipends? Remember Toni Murphy's for "depositing checks"?
Remember the stipend to Sue Mangold's brother-in-law with NO explanation whatsoever?
Rick Mccabe's stipend to himself for "mileage" when the town has a mileage reimbursement policy?
Rick McCabe's stipend to his daughter?
Benko paid as an employee AND a consultant?
Malone threatening a state employee? Try that yourself and see how it works out for you.
Openly violating five consent decrees?
Polluting the Hudson River with raw sewage?
The racial discrimination settlement with a former police officer?
The police officer allowed to resign after taking a well connected 16 year old to an Albany bar?
Disappearing fuel records?
This is only a partial list. Please supplement it with additional examples.
Your taking some liberties with some of this. If you don't know the entire story and facts and are only taking the word of a former Town Councilman, you'd be wise to state ONLY what you know to be the truth. Your wrong on a couple of these.
DeleteNice list now try to list some facts. You are the most pathetic group of malcontents in memory.i could not care less if you print this or shove it up your asses.
ReplyDeleteOne that I thought of is adding to a labor agreement settlement by Rick McCabe AFTER .the town board had approved the memorandum of agreement.
ReplyDeleteWhat should we call that? Bait and switch?
I think the correct way to describe this is that the MOA related to the previously "sunset" sick-leave incentive was added to the contract AFTER the Board had passed a resolution approving the contract. That resolution did not include the MOA added later.
DeleteOH much like Ginny O"Brien added the flower lady without board approval.
DeleteA couple we should add to the list is the "disappearing" scrap money for over a year. Nobody was ever held accountable and nobody ever answered for it.
ReplyDeleteA sitting official (Supervisor) trying to influence the outcome of an election by contacting a candidate's employer (that is an ethics violation as was noted by a state representative). Yet he slides by with no retribution.
all this took place uner boards with different members.
Deleteget over it.
btw, the scrap money didn't disappear, it was never billed or collected until the following year.
Anyone going to get over it when they all know that some people in this town are taking liberties with our money.. I dont think so!
DeleteYou can reason with yourself that it is correct but that is anything but the truth and you darn well know it!
It's just turning your head an looking the other way that is wrong with this town. That needs to change.
11:45 AM:
ReplyDeleteWhich ones?
Please contribute whatever facts you can to the discussion.
Thank you.
4:39 anonymous: there's your biggest mistake- trying to distribute blame amongst the various board mixtures! When (never) are you ever going to see that it has nothing to do with that? We're supposed to just get over tens of thousands of dollars in missing scrap revenue because it was never billed or collected? So what you are saying is that the responsible individuals were either lazy, stupid or criminal. It can only be one of the three. Which? There's no right answer, is there. Of course not, for god's sake. Hey, YOU get over it: we're not getting over any of them, especially the corruption. Dwight Jenkins
ReplyDeleteAnonymous ass-shover at 9:40: which facts are we missing? Nothing that can be found has been left out. You've shoved enough of your BS up our asses over the years that there's no room left at the inn for your made up version. Got any documentation? Lay it out! Beer conversations at Albany bars don't count. Dwight
ReplyDeleteDear 4:39 PM:
ReplyDeleteI would like to agree with you. And if today's Town Board has approved the ethics code recommended to them by their very own Ethics Board I would.
But in refusing to pass the recommended ethics code today's Town Board majority of O'Brien, Mangold and Malone have decided to continue the past practices, the old ways of doing the town's business, the very practices that created and continue our financial crisis.
O'Brien, Mangold and Malone had a terrific opportunity to communicate to the town's tax payers that things would be different and better. They declined to take that step.
So, as we are seeing with the waste treatment issue, we, the taxpayers, are condemmed to re-live the failures of our town's past.
AnonymousAugust 30, 2012 4:39 PM
ReplyDelete"all this took place uner boards with different members.
get over it.
btw, the scrap money didn't disappear, it was never billed or collected until the following year."
All of a sudden, out of nowhere, we stopped billing for the scrap? Just suddenly forgot? Yet the same comptroller was there and she suddenly forgot? And we suddenly forgot that we were trucking scrap to the scrap yard and the scrap yard suddenly stopped paying us? Sorry guys but you can't shine sh**, and that's what you're feverishly trying to do. It was stolen and distributed to "friends and neighbors". Being thieves must be their lot in life.
Dwight Dwight Dwight relax . Donnie , how ya feelin
ReplyDeleteThank you Rick, I do feel better, more relaxed, just knowing that you're there for me to vent to. Dwight
ReplyDeleteVillage Accounting Criticized, by Kristen Brown. A Times Union story today based on the results of a recent OSC audit. Sounds a lot like us. The last sentence is especially disheartening though, and it explains why we've had erectily dysfunctional (lots of potential, no ultimate change) audits in 2000, 2008 , and another soon to be made public: "State audits, which take place over six to nine months, are advisory, and have no penalties on individuals and local governments." I'm guessing we'll see something very similar, with absolutely no way to change it. "What are you going to do about it?" Dwight
ReplyDeleteWell Dwight, OSC has a Legal Investigations Unit which is supposed to investigate referrals and complaints related to fraud in state and local government. One wonders if it ever gets any referrals from OSC auditors themselves. Must be a real tricky path to tread between being "advisory" and also having an in house unit tasked with legal investigations.
ReplyDeleteIn this connection, it looks like Mr. DiNapoli may have his fingerprints on the $135,000 in payments Shelly Silver secretly made to some of Vito Lopez's female staff. (His office is supposed to oversee and "control" the disbursement of public funds.) Allegations have been around for a while that OSC has never been more politicized, but maybe we're beginning to see some cracks in the armor. After all it's some pretty big Dem fish who are making the papers in very uncomplimentary light...Brooklyn Senator, Brooklyn Dem Chair, Speaker.....Comptroller....
Here's another good one from Talks.....
ReplyDelete"ANONYMOUS 555September 01, 2012 9:36 PM
and BTW: facts involving the Towns decision to stay away from anything involving Rensselaer County waste treatment are clearly the facts. Ask Matters for yourself. Rensselaer County was clearly trying to screw East Greenbush - FACT!
Let your buddy the County Legislator try to explain otherwise- he can't - and that's also a FACT!"
Lots of use of the word "fact" but not one bit of "content" of the word is stated. Do you know what a FACT is? Seems doubtful. All we've heard so far is that "the Board decided," but there has been no "content" and no "reason" provided for the basis of that "decision." Just so much palaver...."chin music."
Dear Mr. Malone:
ReplyDeleteI read very carefully your comments in today's T-U. Your comments are not credible. I feel I owe it to you, the Town Board and the taxpayers of East Greenbush to explain why.
First, your only made an argument. You did not supply a single fact, figure or piece of useful information in support of that argument.
You treated your notary responsibilities, and the state employee who investigated your notary violations with contempt. Those are not the actions of a responsible and mature individual.
You, and Sue Mangold, promised greater operational transparency. That was a very false promise. The town, under the majority's leadership that includes you, is more secretive, more evasive and considerably less responsible and responsive than ever.
You promised to get our town a higher percentage of sale taxes. You have yet to deliver on that promise. You cannot make stuff up to get yourself elected and have us respect you when you do not deliver on those promises.
The past, on the waste treatment issue, has included five consent decrees openly and willfully violated by past town boards. That included taxpayer money spent wastefully, and secretively, to pay fines.
Add all this, and much, much more, up. How can we believe you now?
I think you and the entire Town Board would be simply amazed at the bi- partisan support you would receive if you would provide a fact based business case for the optimum waste treatment plant issue. Why is that so difficult? If your argument is valid shouldn't be simple to make the business case that supports that argument?
How do you explain the hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money spent on the by-pass option when that, if we are to believe you, was never a valid option from the get go?
You, and the Town Board, seem determined to force a political decision on taxpayers when what we really want is a business like solution.
Ray....OSC audits of East Greenbush issued in 2000 and 2008 both cited the inability of Town officials to keep their hands off the Sewer and Water Funds and using those funds for other purposes. They've made a great slush fund over the years because officials didn't understand that those funds are restricted for the use intended. The transfers cited in the 2008 report led directly to the $2.5 million debt and the Moodys and S&P bond downgrades. Further, the Financial Recovery Plan called for by OSC in 2008 has yet to be conceived and born. Instead we've gotten additional hiring of "full-time" employees in the face of a $500,000 retirement incentive. The $6.55 million in Sewer bonding in 2008 and the "borrowed" Sewer funds have yet to result in an implemented solution. The issue has been on a local bureaucratic merry-go-round, frittering away tax dollars.
ReplyDeleteIt's in this context that Mr. Malone has the audacity to say that the County wants East Greenbush money to support a shared solution to the wastewater problems of Rensselaer County. Hello. Of course the County does. And East Greenbush has shown no ability whatsoever over the last 15 years to be competent stewards of the dedicated revenue. Over and over, it's been used for other things.
Instead of transparently presented business solutions, we've gotten a secret turn-around with no facts (other than the assertion that the County wants the money) to support it.
Our town had a functioning Finance Committee that was disbanded when it got a little too close to matters the now majority did not want the public spotlight put on.
ReplyDeleteI recall the Town Board meeting when I asked if the Finance Committee had been consulted prior to the decision to absolutely waste $500,000 of OUR money on a early retirement option for a handful of town employees. No one on the then Town Board thought to consult with the Finance Committee. No surprise. That $500,000 of OUR money was completely misspent. It was a bad decision made without any meaningful business case for it.
We now have a Citizens Fiscal ADVISORY Committee.
When that committee met for the first time Phil Malone told them that their mission was to help him get re-elected. That's an exact quote.
The CFAC has not posted minutes since April of this year.
But...putting all that aside. Why can't the Town Board assign the business case review of the waste treatment capacity issue to the CFAC? The CFAC could prepare a public presentation on the pros and cons of the two available options and the economics of both options. The CFAC could actually provide an ADVISORY to the Town Board and, more importantly, to the taxpayers who will pay for whatever decision the Town Board makes on the waste treatment capacity issue.
Malone told the T-U that the county just wants to get their hands on the East Greenbush sewer money.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is the town has already proven that they cannot keep their hands off the water and sewer fund. It will be many years before the water and sewer fund gets repaid from its repeated rapes at the hand of more than one irresponsible town board.
Kind of a struggle to make Malone's comment make sense given the town's history of raiding the water and sewer fund. Nice try, Phil.
I love the quote that the town board was counting on the economy turning around as their financial recovery plan.
And when the economy failed to turn around what did our town board do in response? Add job after job after job to protect their family and friends.
I often wonder if the town board is more guilty of malfeasnace or are they all just plain nutty??
If the dems don't kick Phil to the curb pretty soon they are going to find themselves out in the street. Talk about self destruct . Keep up the good work Phil.
DeleteCongratulations Dwight, Don & Ray! Thank you for continuing to pursue the misappropriation of our tax dollars and the broken policies. Thank you for doggedly following the FACTS and making sure they were published.
ReplyDeleteVery proud to call you friends.
The article in the Sunday Times Union reports that a number of town employees received a total of $140,000 in stipends. Is there a list of the others, and was this actually illegal?
ReplyDeleteHere's the list we printed back on June 17th. Section 27 of NYS Town Law provides that increases in pay above the amounts set at the Organizational Meeting must be provided for by Board Resolution. And in the case of elected officials, the increases must be provided for by local law. The Town has not been able to provide the Resolutions authorizing the increases in bi-weekly pay which raised the salaries of the listed individuals. The Town did supply memos from the Supervisor indicating who was supposed to get what in a bi-weekly increase. Here's the comment from June 17th:
Delete"Since the subject of the Stipends has come up again, here's the Town's response to FOILS from the Times Union and an East Greenbush taxpayer submitted in February and April of 2010. I've shown the TOTAL amount for each individual received during the years 2006-2009, with the "purpose" for each individual as supplied by the Town. I don't think the entire list has been included in a newspaper story or on a blog to this point. This is the entire list for those years.
Name Total "Purpose"
Kathleen Bennett - 27000 - Budget Officer
Laura Ingoldsby - 21000 - Admin Asst
Peter Partak - 19800 - On-call/extra hours
Antonette Murphy - 14400 - Deposit Processing
Joseph Cherubino - 12699 - Safety Mgr
Rick McCabe - 10000 - Expenses/Extra Hours
Lauren McCabe - 7000 - Extra hours/Nights & Weekends
Robert Angelini - 6480 - Engineering
Susan McCarthy - 6111 - STAR Admin
Fred Nero - 6000 - Budget Officer
James Moore - 5000 - MS4 and DEC
Paul Mason - 4108 - On-call/extra hours
Carmella Hicks - 4000 - Senior Programs
Kevin Tuffey - 2000 - No "purpose" provided
Total 2006-2009 145,598"
Sup can appoint a Budget Officer
DeleteKathleen Bennett - 27000 - Budget Officer
Fred Nero - 6000 - Budget Officer
I think you need to do a bit of more extensive homework, Anonymous. Here's what Section 27, paragraph 4 of NYS Town Law says:
Delete"4. Notwithstanding the provisions of subdivision one of this section, the budget officer may receive, in addition to any other compensation, a salary as budget officer to be fixed by the town board."
The record produced by the Town shows that Bennett and Nero got Stipends in the amounts listed as directed by the Supervisor. The Town did not produce any document that indicated that the Town Board had fixed any such salary for being budget officer in addition to any other compensation which had been fixed by the Town Board.
I also looks from the language like it is the Board which appoints a budget officer, not the Supervisor.
TU reports that our Town consulting engineer has been trying to adjust and make upgrades to our sewer system since 2006. One would have to wonder why after 6 years of not making any meaningful progress we haven't found a new consulting engineer. Seems the advise thus far has led this town into a sewer moratorium.
ReplyDeleteAt a recent town board meeting council person Phil Malone stated that the board majority of Mangold, Obrien, and yes Malone will do what they want.
DeleteThat could be why nothing has changed.
I guess the only cushion the dems were figuring on was the one they are sitting on.
ReplyDeletePhil Malone has proven his utter incompetence in the recent TU article. He claims the County wants to ge their hands on the Town's money, but there is no money to access.
ReplyDeletePhil Malone and the entire board are all prepared to saddle tax payers with an addition 8 million dollars in debt to expand the existing plant, without exhausting every option to solve the current problem at hand.
The town would not lose any money. The sewer fund makes a profit and is one of the only departments to do so. Rather than seek a solution with the County, Phil Malone and the dem majority would much rather raise taxes to pay for an expansion plan that we don't need.
The democrats already have raided the sewer fund and owe it a million dollars. If they were to negotiate an agreement with the County, they can arrange to pay back what is owed, NOT raise taxes, and reduce the amount of sewage we treat to come into compliance with the consent order.
Phil Malone is incapable of speaking intelligently about anything unless it benefits his party, his family or himself in which case his words still lack intellect, they are merely convenient propaganda to take advantage of a system in dire need to responsible leadership. A 5 - 0 vote would indicate that all of them are incapable of being responsible.
Their consultants should be removed and DEC should dictate a more prudent course of action that protects the people of this town. Heaven knows, our own representatives lack that kind of courage!
Holy Christmas! Did you 3 (Don, Dwight, and Ray) strike some nerves over on Talks! Their collective hair is on fire because you exposed them again. One thing a rat hates is the light of day and you shined the light on their behinds!
ReplyDeleteThey don't seem to grasp the concept of "investigative reporting". they believe the media is printing whatever you dictate to it. They don't realize reporters investigate before they publish.
And the beat goes on.......
I'd say "pants on fire" too!! It's really strange. Personal attacks on those three for researched stories in the media - Channel 13 and the Times Union.
DeleteMay the light shine ever so brightly as it should in every municipality. Are we to be the exception because some people in our govt. have a direct line to Mayor J. across the polluted Hudson River? Are we to be the exception because the Dem. Party in our town have dug very deep holes filled with "CONNECTIONS?" Talk, talk, talk, man, when the heck will competent action take place here on the hill? The only people taking any competent action here in EG is Don, Dwight and Ray.
ReplyDeleteGovernment SHOULD be held accountable to the taxpayers. The current board seems to be of the opinion that they are only accountable to themselves. They are not to lead by majority, they are to lead by and for the people. Mangold and Malone, how about being transparent with us, after all you said you would last year before you won. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I guess that's probably your answer.
The only real answers we get here on the hill is from the guys who made headlines in the Times Union. Amazing, how wonderful the media can be to the public when they are unbiased.
Keep kicking it up guys, EG really deserves better.
Thanks First!! We can only hope that people get involved and become aware of what has been going on for so long. The shining light cannot hurt anyone who has been doing the right thing. It's almost an axiom that when you run into a secret or non-transparent activity, somebody is up to some mischief. That has certainly been our experience to this point.
ReplyDeleteEast Greenbush has spent very heavily on solar.
ReplyDeletePhil Malone is a employee of the company (Monolith) that installed the solar panels in both the DPW and the waste treatment plant.
The October issue of Consumer Reports lists solar energy systems as the number 1 scam in an article on various scams and frauds.
Consumer Reports states that: "the big up front investment is the equivilent of paying for 30 to 40 years of electricity in advance."
At one of the very early CFAC meetings it was reported that based on the savings shown at the DPW building the payback or return on investment was 22 years - or just a little better than the figures quoted by Consumer Reports.
At the August Town Board meeting Phil Malone, perhaps acting more in his role of representative for Monolith than as a Town Board member, reported that the town was savings thousands of dollars. No facts, figures or details were provided.
There is a reason you do not see many or any for profit companies doing solar. And Consumer Reports pegged that reason exactly.
So, here's a challenge to Mr. Malone, the CFAC and the Town Board. Provide the facts, the details, the data that shows that you spent our money wisely on solar.
That's what accountability really is, Phil. It is fact based - not politically or selfishly motivated spin.
Unless and until we see facts, details, information, data on the waste treatment capacity issue you, and the Town Board, will continue to face demands for the facts and not more political spin.
First of all let me say that something is really wrong with this town that Malone is able to do any business for our town after looseing his notary license.
DeleteHe doesn't have the common sense to know right from wrong and he is makiing decisons for this town.. NOw that makes a lot of sense doesn't it!
Well we've heard from this guy before. This is a statement from a Talks partisan asserting a cost number for the "bypass alternative." No supporting material. Perhaps the Board would like to fill the taxpayer in on the content of this assertion. Or perhaps challenge it. Mr. LaBarba, does this assertion fit with what you have been working on since 2008? This from Talks:
ReplyDelete"ANONYMOUS 555 September 04, 2012 8:02 PM
BTW: the Town would be effectively tossing away a minimum of 10 million initially, and probably more than that after construction and hooking up. Thats ALOT of wasted money being thrown at an aging facility that cannot possibly handle the increase in raw sewage without major upgrades. rensselaer County was banking on thee East Greenbush money. Too bad we saw the light.
Screw Rensselaer County and their failed attempt at a cheap trick to get East Greenbush Tax money!
Mike Cristo has never openly nor honestly represented the taxpayers of East Greenbush and this is just another glaring example of HIS incompetence and ignorance! Wonder how cristo is gonna explain this failure to Reid and Crist?!"
Doesn't even leave a name so you can call him up.
Looks to me, from the facts on the public record, that this assertion from Anonymous 555 on Talks is a bold face lie. He/she is a surrogate for the Board majority and maybe including Langley and Matters, who are about the process of selling us down the river again for the sake of their own private interest.
DeleteThe fact that Regeneron is in conversation with the County to take care of its issues speaks loudly that the EG managers over the years have really screwed up. If they had used the bond proceeds as intended when available and if they had used the sewer funds as intended instead of transferring them and blowing them on self interest, the Town would be in position to respond effectively to the needs for wastewater treatment as they are presented today.
The "machine" operating since the late '90's has screwed up royally. They should not be given access to this matter any longer. The need to be watched carefully until we can remove them from office.
Mark my words.. Regeneron will get what they want and so will the majority board.
DeleteSeems clear to me that the board members have their own agendas.. and none are for the people here in town.
You will see an increase in taxes and you will definately see Regeneron build on.
All at our cost. Mark my words..
Done deal just like Fed Ex.
Suck them dry, sell them out and lets move on..
Deletehas to be the new motto for this town.
When the numbers comparison is out side by side, I believe that the agenda being carried for the Town's behind the scenes "biggies" will be exposed. It is absolutely essential that the "biggies" have control of the development decisions in very local hands. That's how the local "biggies" make their money. Any County control will compromise big plans. Wanna bet that this is one of the big reasons for the financial disclosure flap on the Ethics code too?
DeleteI want everyone reading this blog to understand something...
ReplyDeleteI don't see this blog as advocating, necessarily, for one option on the waste treatment issue over another.
What this blog seems to have done a terrific job showing is the history and the money spent on developing the county by-pass option. That history, the facts surrounding that history, the huge amounts of our money spent to date AND all the supporting documentation have been well researched and well developed by this blog and the Times Union.
What I see this blog advocating for seems pretty simple...
Okay Town Board, if you are going to blow all that history, money, facts and figures and documentation off in favor of your own option kindly explain that to us taxpayers who must pay for your decisions - good and bad.
This blog has cited the history of bad spending decisions by various Town Boards: stipends, additional unneeded friends and family hired in jobs we do not need, the early retirement option, solar and more. That history does not exactly fill us taxpayers with confidence.
AND...for whatever their reason, the Town Board is steadfastly refusing to provide any business case for their preferred option. That seems to support this blog's view of concern over bad decisions and wasteful spending by the Town Board.
Our friends and neighbors on the Talks blog are only adding to the concern. They advocate for a waste treatment option but provide nothing in terms of facts or details. They relentlessly attack people rather than address the waste treatment issue objectively.
So, that's one taxpayers view and summary of the whole waste treatment capacity issue. I would appreciate thoughts and comments on this posting.
I go with the county taking over. Not sure what the others are saying but It just sounds more feeseable to me.
DeleteWould think that the county could run it a lot cheeper then us tending to it and trying to keep up on maintenance.
Funny how no one could tell Lambdin or the T.U. that aspect of the story. It can only be told by an unnamed and probably unqualified source who doesn't know a dollar from a donut. Maybe it's the same person who thought buying a golf course was a good idea. Maybe it's the same former town officer who stated at a meeting that the Town had been rolling over for others too long, even though he was partially in charge of the rolling. Who knows! That's the problem with these people: you can't BUY a straight answer from a person with a name, armed with supporting documents and facts. Again, we couldn't care less who handles the waste, we just want the best for ALL of us, not a select few. Make that case. So far- nothing. Dwight Jenkins
ReplyDeleteThe bypass, by all accounts has already been funded, the money is sitting there. There has also been a large investment already made. By comparison the expansion will cost over 8 million dollars which we have to borrow and put on tax payers. What the board or this commenter is not willing to note is the fact that by putting in the bypss, the Town can shift EXISTING flow to the county and have them treat that. That will free up capacity in OUR plant and allow the Town to continue to expand, continue to charge their hook up fee and generate money as before. They totally ignore the fact that the dems in this town used Mr. Partak to cover up the fact they were polluting the Hudson for years and when he was removed, they went to great lengths to protect that information. Thanks to Don, Dwight and Ray, the truth has come out. Funny how they never mention a plan to repay the sewer fund so tack on an extra million to the cost of the expansion. BTW, the 8 million is BEFORE project change orders, cost over runs and unexpected items that need to be addressed that can't be ignored once you are in the middle of the project. They also forget that they can't calculate the amount of water they are not treating because they flow directly to the Hudson. Once they expand this plant, they will quickly realize they are undersized, AFTER they have raised sewer rates substantially to pay for it all. Remember there is a tax cap now. If they need to raise more money, they have to do it elsewhere. Sewer fees is it!
ReplyDeleteIf majority votes for tax increase greater than the tax cap, it will go through. Unfortunately the Board cannot be trusted to live within our means and any loophole that can be found to increase our taxes in addition to increasing our water/sewer bills, they will. Sorry but that's how this Town has been run for over 8 years. Increase our taxes and/or fees and spend/squander our money.
ReplyDeleteThe tax cap does not make us safe.
What is the debt of East Greenbush. I was told that it is 2 million dollars. I can't believe that is true.
ReplyDelete.
I have been called a "carpetbagger" by an anonymous blogger over on Talks.
ReplyDeleteI am not going to engage in a public debate through the blogs. I invited that person to share her/his name so we could "Talk". Pun intended by the way.
I am going to say that I feel that as a citizen, voter, and taxpayer I was not aware that the Talks crew also requires a "seniority" component before someone is allowed by them to become active in our town government. I do not believe our Constitution has a "seniority" component. So, I am blowing off the "carpetbagger" reference as not being credible.
The other comment made by this same Talks blogger was about people being called names on one or the other blogs the Talks crew opposes.
I want to say this...
I have never, ever seen the filth that was directed to Ann Taylor by people on Talks come close to comparing to anything said about a Talks person. Never.
The comments about Ms. Taylor were, and still are, vile and disgusting. They were gender specific and they were reprehensible.
But, I have yet to see a Talks blogger express herself or himself to the foulness directed toward Ms. Taylor. And until that happens the people on Talks will have zero credibility on any issue of comments made about others.
Per Talks:
ReplyDelete"AnonymousSeptember 06, 2012 8:51 AM
Facts and figures are subjective opinions"
So there you have it. No amount of facts will be enough for the dunderheads on Talks. They want to believe the lies they eat for breakfast are solid nourishment. So sad and so sickening. The facts and figures from the FOILs and the media will never be enough because they want to keep the lies alive. The reason--the lies put money in their wallets.
Keith is officially one of those promulgating their behavior as valid which makes Keith one of the dirty, filthy corrupt politicians that has infested this Town. He refuses to answer the media, he refuses to be a man and defend the tax payers dollars and he refuses to be a man and respond to residents' questions. At what point will Supervisor Langley "MAN UP"! It's disgusting. For the love of GOD---if he can't get the cajones together, find a woman that can stand up for us! Ginny looks out for her people!
And the beat goes on......
The Talks blog is run by a bunch of political hacks placed in patronage position that are doing the heavy lifting for the party. Dave Van Wormer dies a good deal of their writing, Mike O'Brien, Ginny's husband, Pete Stenson, Carmela Hicks and on and on. They seldom if ever discuss anything of substance. They are bottom feeders who live to protect the benefits they receive from a town who can not afford to keep paying them. They will break the town in Time. They have sent the old guard, Maeny, Hart, Benko and Polsinello to suck up to Keith and blow smoke up his... well you get the point. They will use Keith, blame everything on him, promise him the world and leave him for dead. They don't want Malone in power so they feel taking advantage of Keith and promising him the world is a better path. If they spent the time on fixing problems that they spend attacking residents, they'd actually get somewhere. Ray, don't let up, you're right. Funny thing is, no one reads their blog but them and some of the people here.
ReplyDeleteor so you hope !!
DeleteRay--
ReplyDelete"I do not believe our Constitution has a "seniority" component. So, I am blowing off the "carpetbagger" reference as not being credible."
THAT is a great point and a great line. So funny and so true. How parochial in thought are those people that they believe in a "seniority component" when discussing our tax dollars? Keep going you three! We love it!
Bobo 3:52 - Perhaps without realizing it you have placed your finger on the very crux of the problem with this blog and with East Greenbush in general: "Keep Going you three! We love it!" No disrespect, Bobo, but we three can't change anything but our underwear. Maybe 300 active citizens could. 3,000 would certainly overturn the local landscape forever. But 3? Let me disillusion you: it's not going to happen. So we get a story in the newspaper. Oooohhh!!! Exciting! The mob loves it! But the mob stays faceless and apathetic forr the most part while arrangements are made to fire the Finance Director, having already fired the Secretary, and replace the once strident Deputy Supervisor with the old, defeated Supervisor, the one who brought us to junk bond status as a town. See, he has more than three in positions of power. We have none. So while everyone may be ruffled with a Sunday front page story, nothing is going to change because not enough people want it to change. It really is that simple. Hate me yet? Good. You needed to hear it. All of you. Don, you may be tempted not to post this, but I sincerely hope that you do. What's happening behind the scenes in East Greenbush is nothing less than a crime that everyone witnessed but no one saw. Find another Gadfly to keep you amused, Greenbush, and enjoy your future in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Yup.
ReplyDeleteDwight Jenkins
Dwight is exacty right. Nothing is going to change around here until enough people want it to change - and have the sense to elect somebody UNLIKE the last one who has a huge ego, no moral compass and questionable intellect. Now it looks like we're going to have "twins" with the same qualities. Failing that, you folks just might follow the age-old advice of Tex Antoine and just lay back and enjoy it.
ReplyDeleteDwight and EG Gadfly--
ReplyDeleteAs correct as you are, YOU 3, may also be part of the problem. As much as many of us do love it, you also neglect the Advertiser. Sad as this sounds, the Advertiser has a very large readership. People wait all week for that and it is read cover to cover. Sitting and FOILing and blogging does not help if the "masses" are not made aware. Not that long ago there were many more involved and still nothing was done, the same crew was elected. Those activists' lives, including your own, were attacked.
Encouraging you to "Keep going you three! We love it!" was meant as a compliment. The 3 of you give hope to those of us who may not be as courageous as you for various reasons. If you 3 keep going, and we love it that was meant to be interpreted as, "Thank you for the information. The more we know, the better educated we are when we vote. We can't openly participate but we can vote." Apparently I should have been more exact in my compliment.
The problem with the other blog is lack of substance. No FOILed documents, simply name calling at the most foul of levels and a strong ignorance of facts and numbers. They refuse to sincerely look at both sides and the facts. That is a big problem with the other blog.
With this blog---between neglecting sharing this information in the Advertiser and, at times being a bit too detailed or lacking "layman's terms" there really does not seem to be a problem. This is not a suggestion that anything needs to be "dumbed down" BUT people are busy and want the "Reader's Digest" version. If things were explained in simpler terms in the Advertiser, readers can then be directed to your blog for more details and specifics if they chose to partake of those specifics. Just a thought.
No disrespect was intended by "Keep going! We love it!" On the contrary, it was meant to show appreciation for your efforts in a very "cheerleader" manner. You 3 have sacrificed in personal ways and a little shout out of encouragement was the only intention.
My apologies for my miscommunication.
Dear Bobo:
ReplyDeleteYou, and anyone else who may follow this blog, are perfectly free to write anything you like in The Advertiser?
Why does it all fall to Don or Dwight or I?
You can FOIL for information, you can attend town meetings, you can ask questions, you can share comments, you can do a whole lot more than what you are doing.
That is not to suggest for a second that your, and other people's favorable comments are not appreciated. They are.
But...we need more direct and active participation. We really do.
I understood exactly what you meant, Bobo, and I appreciate it. My point is that neither I, nor Don, nor Ray should have to do any more than we already do. The Town is half Republican, for God's sake. Aside from a very select few, how many people wrote The Advertiser? Don, Ray and I all did. We also contacted every State Agency and media outlet possible to try and get to the truth. I don't know if you're included in that, as I don't recall seeing Bobo appear anywhere but here lately. Maybe it's time for you to take the helm, get your real name out there, send articles, meet with investigators and reporters, blah blah blah. None of it means anything if no one up above wants to do the right thing. As far as I'm concerned, you're now in control of the ship of dissent. Godspeed. Don't take it personal, don't even know who you are, but you can obviously think and write, so you are qualified. Dwight Jenkins
ReplyDeleteI submitted the following in response to Jack Conway on Talks. They don't appear willing to post it. One other point I'd make is that we ALL didn't create the problem which exists with the sewer issue. We ALL didn't ignore Orders on Consent. We ALL didn't do the inter-fund borrowing which created the debt and the junk bond condition. From all appearances these things happened without any public knowledge at all. I have yet to find a resolution done in public which authorized these things. These situations were created by persons who were not doing the jobs they were supposed to be doing as competent public officials. They should have done their jobs without being "babysat" by vigilant taxpayers. Jack is in his "forgive and forget" mode in which nobody is responsible for anything.
ReplyDelete"Jack, we have been asking for a public information session for a long time. There has been at least 4 years of work on the by-pass option. And as I stated at the last Board meeting, the 180 degree turn was done in secret and no cogent explanation has hit the public record yet. Doesn't make for credibility, does it. All we have heard is that bad behavior from County Republicans blew everything up. That, before the engineering cost report that Langley said was the purpose of the resolution at the last meeting. We are grownups and can read and write. We can also understand clear presentations. None have appeared yet."
Really Advertiser.. WEll, I haven't seen one in months here.
ReplyDeleteBut okay.. So you say the advertiser is the way to go. I wonder were you think that an Adverstiser would be better then the
TV or Times Union.
I give you guys a lot of credit for taking the chance and going the distance with this stuff.
Very commendable
But you might be thinking at this time that you have taken three steps back..
Not true..
Look I am not at all impressed with who we have on Town Board and that goes for Keith Langley .
Feels like more of the same ol same ol to me . So I dropped out!
BTW, I recently FOILed for the documentation to support the recent hire for an urgently needed opening in the Town Court Clerk area. The 2012 Organizational Meeting Minutes shows 3 people in those slots. Yesterday's Town web site jobs listing shows the same three people filling those jobs. Maybe the web site wasn't updated? The FOIL came back as stating that there was no documentation to support the hiring. So we fired the former finance director, replaced her and finally hired a bookkeeper, then slashed the salaries of the new Finance Director and new bookkeeper and hired a 4th Court Clerk. The fired the new finance director, probably to be replaced by the old Finance Director again, leaving perhaps another urgent opening in the clerkship? All the while, Machiavellian machinations continue as the new Deputy Supervisor heads off to bigger things in a State race and we look to possibly reappoint (for no pay that we know of, but this one has to be watched carefully- look for "Budget Officer" payments coming up) the old Supervisor as new Deputy Supervisor. Yup, that's the way your town works. Bobo, feel free to summarize and send to The Advertiser. You'll need to sign your name though. Dwight Jenkins
ReplyDeleteI believe that there is a materially false "whereas" in the Resolution - the one which states that "a Court Clerk vacancy exists in the office of the East Greenbush Town Justice Court." I'm wondering if the stating of a materially false premise to the disbursement of tax money is something which puts the prevailing majority in some sort of legal jeopardy. If the position existed, why would it need budget transfers to fund it? Also, the scuttlebutt is that a clause in the original Resolution stated that the position was new and was unfunded. This clause was supposedly removed by someone in the Town Attorney's office.
ReplyDeleteJust so everyone knows...
ReplyDeleteI have been advised by people in the know, on a very regular basis, that the town does not do a good job of wording resolutions.
There are two examples where the term "pending litigation" or " a certain lawsuit" were used in two different resolutions when there was, in fact, no litigation and no lawsuit. None. You might think someone would know the difference wouldn't you?
If you review the video at the top of this post you will see Supervisor Langley respond to a question I asked. The resolution in question is worded such that the expansion option seems a foregone conclusion. Supervisor Langley told me and the audience that both the by-pass to the county and the expanstion of our existing plant were still options. One would never guess that from a reading of the wording of the resolution.
There are other examples of resolutions that are just plain poorly worded.
I have also been told that the term that the Town Board "took a hard look" at something or another is simply a term of art used in government that means precisely nothing.
Way back in the Fed Ex days we were told that Fed Ex would bring something like $32 million to the local economy. When I asked about that I was told that it is simply a made up number that could never be analyzed or proven one way or another. But if you look back to those days that number was batted around a lot.
Last point...at Thursday's Special Board meeting the resolution being read and the resolution that was handed out were different. I have not had time to try to understand the differences and if the differences matter.
All in all there is a pattern of how resolution are worded that is either just bad because someone does not know how to better write the resolution or, as is more likely the case in the "pending litigation" and a "certain lawsuit" done with some other objective in mind and making the document non FOIL-able is a decent bet.
That shouldn't be too hard to get to the bottom of. Hey, just heard that at that special emergency board meeting last week we authorized Chazen engineering to do a sewage treatment plant study, cost not to exceed $75,000. It's funny if you think about it, since the Town Board already authorized a plan for our "we promise we"ll fix it and we mean it this time" to the State DEC, and that secret plan, which went into executive session, called for expansion, not by-pass. So NOW we're going to throw another $75K at the taxpayers to STUDY what we already said we'd do! And that's after studying the problem for what, four years, and determining that by-pass was more efficient? We the taxpayers are being beaten like donkeys by the power and money boys.
ReplyDeleteGadfly - I don't know if I am in my 'forgive and forget' mode but I believe that anger is counterproductive in political debates. I think we need a public information session on this and I would like to see representatives of the county there as well as our town board. We can't afford to make a mistake on this but accusing people of secrecy and incompetence is not the best way to bring them to the table. There is too much 'divide and conquer' going on here: between you guys and the town board, and between the town board and the county legislature. It is important to remember that we're all in this together and we're all residents of both town and county. There is a right answer and we need to look forward to see it. If that means 'forgive and forget' so be it.
ReplyDeleteJack:
ReplyDeleteYou and Phil Vecchio both suggested a financial turnaround plan to the Town Board. And you both have been utterly and completely ignored.
You and I have both suggested a business case analyzing the two principle waste treatment plant capacity options.
And, so far anyway, we are also both being utterly ignored.
You may recall Sue Mangold's comment from the August meeting:
"The Town Board does not have time to explain every little detail."
Two recent resolutions mentioned "pending litigation" and "a certain lawsuit" when neither statement was factual or accurate.
Given all of the above (and more) as well as what I went through to achieve nothing more than getting a copy of the draft of the ethics code you helped draft what level of confidence would you suggest we communicate to taxpayers on the odds that the Town Board will do what you are suggesting?
MY questions to Sue Mangold is when has the Town ever gotten a answer that was honest or correct?
DeleteNEVER!!! When has any of you answered a question with a locical answer? Never? When have you ever been honest and willing to answer a question. Never!
That is why we have to form a group to ask these questions in the first place.. hopeing that one day you all will either wake up and be open about what is going on or we vote your lazy butts out.
Been done once and sure it can be done again and again.
Jack – I saw your comment on the Talks blog and now I see this one. You say that everyone is to blame for the sewer problem. I beg to differ. I and a whole lot of people have no responsibility for what has happened and neither do you. First off, we didn’t know anything about it. There is no public record we can find to show that the public knew about sewage being dumped into the Hudson until Dwight foiled for the information – and I believe he got the information from DEC not the Town. One of the tenets of a representative form of government is that those who govern are responsible to the citizens. We put them in office, and they are accountable to us. The administrations in power are the people who were responsible for the sewer and water fund being raided and for the raw sewage being dumped in the Hudson. Not me. Not you. I don’t care what party was responsible. I just want it fixed. The right way, not the most expensive way. If these people are so thin-skinned they can’t take criticism they should get out of the way and let other people govern. Regardless of any accusations it is the responsibility of the Town and County to do their jobs. No "kissy-face" should be required.
ReplyDeleteSorry if some don’t like the facts out there – but nobody said governing was easy. I for one do not like sitting in a room and being lied to — I don’t know how many times that has happened at board meetings. Or being made fun of. How many times when people talked did the former Supervisor roll his eyes and now one of our “esteemed” younger members of the board does the same. The latest Supervisor doesn’t even allow questions.
Your conciliatory attitude is naïve at best – and you have a good heart but don’t put the blame for this mess on “all of us” because it is not true.
Most of us do not want to be involved in politics – we expect those in office to do the right thing. Except in this Town, I guess. But then if my livelihood depended on a patronage job I guess I wouldn’t care as long as I could feed from the trough.
Hi Jack, Dwight here. The secrecy aspect can't be denied. I was there the day they retired to executive session to discuss what their proposal to DEC would be. There was no discussion allowed. Four years of dithering with our bond money only to change plans at the last minute, in silence, cannot be construed as anything good. You are correct in saying we need a public forum, and that's really even more than we've asked for. All we want is an explanation, with supporting data. If it is in fact cheaper to expand- fine, I don't think anyone cares. We just don't want to see any more of our tax money wasted. I' sure you don't either. On its face it looks like an approximately $8,000,000 vs. $3,000,000 comparison. Ballpark figures, but pretty easy to interpret. As for the County vs Town aspect, you're probably right.
ReplyDeleteJack:
ReplyDeleteWould you describe the Town Board today as more or less open and transparent?
Are Town Board meetings better or worse today in terms of public participation? Are FOILs easier or harder to get today?
Does the expression: "You are either with us or against us" suggest an openness to different points of view or to any level of engagement with taxpayers?
Did you know about the 5 previous Consent Decrees?
How did openly and willfully violating those 5 previous Consent Decrees work? Did those Town Boards just say to themselves screw the environment, the state AND the agreements we signed each and every time?
I am not asking these questions to be sarcastic or flippant. I am asking them because the answers go to the confidence taxpayers can have in the Town Board to do the right thing and to do the right thing the right way.
History, unfortunately, suggests that taxpayers need to be paying attention, questioning everything and working hard to hold town government people accountable.
I am 100% confident that the Town Board would be completely amazed at the bi-partisan support and help they would receive if they were open and honest with the people they were elected to represent. But, again, history suggests that special interests will ALWAYS rule in East Greenbush.
In Northern Ireland there was an eminent historian named A.T.Q Stewart who once wrote: "In Ireland, history is too important to be left to the historians and no one has any intention of doing so." This was how he explained the seemingly never-ending hostility between Catholics and Protestants. Each side could point to wrongs committed against them in the past and spent a great deal of time doing exactly that. Peace and reconciliation only started to take root in Northern Ireland when each side agreed to look to the future instead of the past. Having lived in Belfast I know what real problems look like, ones where the result is a body dumped at dawn on waste ground or a woman being wheeled down the aisle to take her wedding vows after having lost both legs in a bomb blast.
ReplyDeleteIn a similar fashion but on a much smaller scale, mistakes have been made here in the past. Some continue and some have been rectified. The town board has been guilty of playing things too close to the vest but that is part of the culture of local politics in this part of the world. Its a part I would like to see changed but its existence doesn't prove that members of the democratic majority are bad people, just that they participate in a system where that is the norm. No one believes in open, transparent and accountable government more than I do. But in politics you can only progress from the situation you find yourself in at any given moment. The past cannot be changed and our ability to move forward in a positive manner depends on the emotions we attach to our interpretations of what has gone on before.
You guys have done a great job of amassing information that can help them make informed decisions. But the overwhelming emotion in your analyses is always anger. Even if you were right about everything (and you're not) very few people who disagree with you will ever change their mind because they are suspicious of your motivations in much the same way that you are suspicious of the motivations of those with whom you disagree. This is the vicious cycle that currently dominates politics in East Greenbush. It takes two to tango and you are playing your part to the hilt. Like you, I would like to see the waste water issue settled on the basis of careful analysis. But as long as your information and analysis is perceived as anger your chance of getting and participating in that careful analysis decreases. Even if it turns out that you were right to be angry we will have lost the chance to make things better. Would you consider it a victory if the town board makes the wrong decision but you were proved right? I fear that you would.
We have to proceed from where we are now and it would be best if we could do so in an objective and cooperative manner. Our problems can be solved and you guys have the tools to be a critical part of that solution but you don't win hearts and minds with negative emotions.
The citizens of East Greenbush have been deceived through every step in the waste treatment issue. Every, single step over a period of many years.
ReplyDeleteWe never knew there were 5 previous Concent Decrees. We never knew WE were paying fines.
The meeting and resolutions Dwight refers to above were described as about a "pending litigation." That was a deliberate lie intended to enable the Town Board to meeting in private and to make documents un FOIL-able.
And now Jack Conway is suggesting we all hold hands and chant mantras with a Town Board that is contemptible in their attitude toward taxpayers.
Jack, this blog has asked simple, basic questions. All we want is the truth in a fact based manner.
The Talks blog dominated by the Democratic Party Committee is seeking to avoid those facts by attacking Don, Dwight and Ray.
Your comments are well intended, I am sure. All the town really needs is an open, factual analysis. Why is that proving so hard for the Town Board? Can you address yourself to that?
Jack:
ReplyDeleteAnyone who questions anything the people in power are doing gets attacked. Anyone who questions the status quo gets attacked. That, as you very well know, is a history lesson that goes back forever.
And that's what has, and is, happening to Don, Dwight and I.
You and the Talks blog are trying to re-direct the simple questions we have been, and are asking into angry rants. Speaking only for myself I reject your basic premise.
The politicians and their supporters on the Talks blog cannot respond factually. So, they revert to the time honored practice of attacking their perceived opposition.
Let's skip past ALL the words from all sides of this issue.
Can we agree that what is needed is a fact based analysis of the waste treatment capacity issue?
If we can agree to that why has the Town Board, and their supporters, been so resistant to something so simple? Why can't we get the simplest of questions answered?
If the Town Board was proud of what they are doing or planning to do don't you think the public would be well aware of that? Don't you think that secrecy suggests the exact opposite?
What would you like Don, Dwight and I to do? We have not called anyone any names. That's not true of the Democratic Committee dominated Talks blog. You have addressed yourself to the suggestion that we not be angry. Got it. So, what should we do, in your judgment?
Jack, you used every ounce of your considerable mediation and political skills to get the Town Board to accept the Ethics Board's recommended ethics code. You failed. Not because of the quality of the work. Not because of the quantity of the work. Not because of your skills.
Nope, you failed because the Town Board seeks to do business the way it always has. And doing things the way they have always been done is exactly, and almost solely, what is wrong with our town.
"We're the majority, and what we pass, passes."
ReplyDelete"The Town Board does not have time to explain every little detail."
"What are you going to do about it?"
"You're not one of those 'open government guys' are you?"
These are statements of our Town officials.
I guess it's the "system," Jack. Aren't those pretty clear expressions of motivation? Don't they raise suspicions about motivation in your mind? Elected officials who talk like that should not be in office.
The sewer issue didn't just "happen." The crisis is the result of conscious decisions by officials over the years. It was a conscious decision, not serendipity, which led to the paying of fines rather than addressing the Order on Consent problems with the money available in the Sewer Fund. It was a conscious decision to take that Sewer Fund money and spend it in the General Fund. And this illegal decision led to the current debt of about $2 million and the junk bond status.
When OSC reported the Town's condition in 2008 and called for a recovery plan this was the consciously decided upon response from the administration:
"Last year, upon our request for an audit, the NYS Comptroller's Office did an extensive study of the town's financial books and budget processes. The report was returned with very positive feedback. The few concerns mentioned have been addressed. There have been rumors of citations for mismanagement. These are entirely untrue, and no such citation was issued."
Citizens have every right to be angry at the performance of our public officials - of every political stripe. Performance has been lousy and credibility is gone. The Town government is the only entity which can establish the credibility of the Town government. They do not appear to be pursuing that agenda.
Now we are being told that all the questions have been answered, and we just didn't listen. That's BS and you know it.
Jack, you have excused all manner of things as being "the system".
ReplyDeleteBut the system is only as good, or as bad, as the people running the system.
99% of the problems in our town would evaporate if the Town Board did just one thing...
Make decisions based on what is best for the taxpayers.
Why can't or won't that happen?
You know more than enough to answer that question. Have at it - please.
Jack, I'm sure you are aware of another former battleground nation: South Africa. Remember the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_%28South_Africa%29
ReplyDeleteThe past cannot be overlooked any more than the present because we are still paying for the mistakes of the past, making them thereby present issues. The sewer problem as it stands is a very present issue. DEC has a plan in front of them. Doesn't get more present than that. I can't speak for anyone else, but my intent isn't to change anyone's mind on the other side. Don't forget, "the other side" is comprised now of individuals from all parties. No, their mind is made up by the monetary gain to be had for certain individuals and companies if things go a certain way. And if that's the best way for East Greenbush taxpayers, fine. My intent is simply to reach out to the undecided or uninformed and show them the flaws in the current system so that they too will wake up and see how they are being lied to and stolen from. Anger as unproductive? Really? Worked pretty well for the American Revolution and the Civil War. Oh, and WWI. And WWII. It just has to be managed properly. I actually think this blog has done a pretty good job of that, given some unattractive alternatives and the example set by the Talks blog. You have read that one, right? Have you given them the same lecture? Dwight
How many people know the difference between inflow and infiltration? Infiltration is water that seeps into the sewer through aging pipes and pipe fractures. Inlow is direct connections of sump pumps and catch basins tied directly to the sewers.
ReplyDeleteI hear and see that slip lining has been done in Sherwood Park. This method is only a stop gate measure to temporarilry slow down the infiltration.
I do not hear anything about curbing the inflow into the sewers. The town itself has tied several catch basins directly to the sewer where there is has no easy way to remove the rain runoff - like the corner of Jefferson Ave. and Phillips Rd.
I recently saw a foundation drain on Phillips Rd. tied right directly into the sewer line on a house under reconstruction. This work was done on a weekend, was there a permit issued? Was there any type of inspection? (this house always had a wet basement)
Many, many vented manhole covers in town are in the lowest points on roads and in ditches acting like area drains whenever it rains. Manhole covers are completely off through Witbeck's property allowing the drainage of the swamps they run thru.
I wonder if this town will ever do anything right, in the proper order, for the good of all taxpayers.
Where has all the surplus monies gone to? Where did the federal grant monies to study the sewer problems go? They certainly haven't done anything to address the major problems we have with our sewer system that parts of are almost one hundred years old.
Well, when they get their way and expand the treatment plant and add a few more on the payroll, we will all pay a pretty hefty price for years to come.
The so-called savings from the solar panels will no longer be because the panels will have to go to make room for the expansion.
Thanks Phil, Ginny, Sue, Rick, Rich, Red, George, Dave, Tom, Pat, Joe, ETC. FOR NOTHING
---Jim Buell
I know that when the town came though a few years ago .. they added many many manhole covers to each street in Sherwood park.
DeleteThey still did a crappy job.. all those manhole covers and the rain and run off still doesn't catch them..
Just looks good for the town that they solved some flooding issues in Sherwood park.
Its funny that you angrily reject my contention that you are angry. My grandmother used to say "fish would be the last ones to discover the existence of water" because its the medium in which they swim and so it is with you guys and your anger. Ray, you're not angry? Really? The theory here is that you are simply good citizens with no personal agendas doing God's work but are being victimized by personal attacks from a pernicious howling mob of corrupt hooligans. Both blogs have featured indefensible personal attacks and reprehensible examples of character assassination but what else can you expect in the cowardly world of anonymous blogging? There has been considerably more information and analysis on this blog and I have always publicly given you guys credit for that. But here's the problem as I see it:
ReplyDeleteOur problems are cultural not personal. A republican majority would act no differently from a democratic majority. You guys raked Rick McCabe over the coals when he defended some of his actions by saying 'that's the way its always been done,' but Rick was only being honest. A culture of politics develops over a period of years and characteristic ways of doing business evolve. In local politics in the Capital Region that has meant that a small coterie of insiders, organized in democratic and republican committees, take control of local government and run it in a way that best enables them to stay in power. Anyone who has an interest in affecting the course of local government knows to find their way into this system and learns to play the game. That means going to meetings, working on campaigns, supporting the party line, and cultivating connections with business and commercial interests. It is a miniature version of what happens on the national level. The reward is better access to jobs and contracts and favorable consideration when appearing before public boards.
What we have learned is this system does not seem able to handle the complex problems that face town governments in the 21st century, especially in light of a depressed economy, and so our town is facing a host of huge problems that always seem to be growing rather than shrinking. And this would be as true with a republican majority as with a democratic one. Local government now requires a far more technical approach than previously; its practices must be modernized and updated. So along come people like you and me, people who don't know how to play the game but develop a sincere desire to see things improve. We bring different backgrounds and work and life experiences and start to get involved. We want to help. So how do we do that?
It seems to me there are two paths we can choose: (1) understand the cultural nature of the problem and fight to change the system, understanding that the problem is not personal; or (2) fall into the trap of personal politics, attacking people because we think they are attacking us, and allowing a sense of victimhood to prevent any meaningful interaction with people whose views differ. Personal attacks are the key to maintaining the old system of politics in EG and you guys, in my opinion, have fallen headlong into this trap. An open objective discussion of the waste water issue would be a step towards positive change but you are not willing to take the kind of conciliatory tone that could enable that to happen. You can posture all you want but this is as personal to you as it is to the people you accuse of making it personal. And so the cycle continues to spin.
Well Jack....All I can say is a great big THANK YOU for stimulating the righteous indignation of taxpayers which is a necessary ingredient of the energy for change in our Town.
ReplyDeleteAs the history of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission which Dwight cited demonstrates, for reconciliation to take place, truth must be told and justice must be served.
The "interests" which created the problems we have are still very much active in the decisions being made. If you continue to deny that, you're in deep denial. Those interests have no desire whatsoever to have a dialogue. They are interested in the pursuit of their interests, and the silence of questioners.
And Jack....Those "interests" are very active in what the Majority did to the Ethics Code which you and your Board worked so hard to draft. No financial disclosure is the "heart" of the issue, followed closely by "joke" rules for patronage and nepotism.
DeleteJack, you are too nice to argue with. I'll be the first to admit that I'm angry, and will probably continue to be angry until I see things change. Perfect example: was there REALLY an urgent opening in the Court Clerkship back in June? The case seems pretty clear that there was not. That one cost the taxpayers. Given your framing of the political problem in town, what exactly would you have us do about it? If you can help fix us I'll follow you to hell and back, just tell us what to do! Get specific! As I see it our anger has ceased stipends, increased scrap revenue for the town, and made all of us very, very conscious of a longstanding sewage problem that needs to be fixed as soon as possible and at the least cost to the public. What have other methodologies wrought here? If you feel like going to dinner to discuss this in a more personal format, call me. I'm in the book. I looked for you but didn't see you. Sincerely, Dwight
ReplyDeleteThe British government and the main political parties in Northern Ireland decided against using the South African model for truth and reconciliation because it has not been as successful as originally advertised. What seemed like a good idea has foundered on the rocks of politics and the reality that some of the information disclosed has been used to plan and carry out revenge attacks against people who came forward. There is a great deal of public opinion in South Africa that believes the commission was a mistake. I have mixed emotions about it. But you guys apparently don't understand how the commission worked. There was blanket amnesty for everyone who came forward; so the truth was told but justice was not served.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the seriousness of this discussion and the fact that you have given me a forum for disagreeing with you. But I still think the problem is that you guys have a point to prove - fair enough - but that proving your point is more important than solving the problem. The question is how to move forward. Despite Suzanne's assertion, the waste water problem is all of our fault. Members of all parties have had a hand in it and we elected them, either by voting for them or by staying home and clearing the path for them. You don't get to start the clock at the moment you started paying attention. In a democracy you always get the government you deserve, that's the beauty of it. We have earned the problems we have.
Dwight is right that there is merit in understanding the past but my argument is not about understanding but the emotions you attach to what you have learned. The town board has been democratically elected and they are empowered to make the decisions. It is valid for you to believe that they are doing a bad job but how then do you get them to change course? I think we can all agree that it takes good information to make good decisions but people whom you perceive to be the enemy are not going to listen to you (and Dwight I did give this 'lecture' on EG Talks). And so I say it again: you would rather be right than affect real change. You can blame 'them' for everything but your intransigence is as much a problem as theirs. We need to bring the best information and the decision-makers together but as long as nobody trusts anyone else that isn't going to happen.
Jack, I do not disagree with you that one political party is not very different than another. That's why I remain a registered independent.
ReplyDeleteI reject the "it has always been done this way" excuse. That self serving rationalization condemns us to repeat the mistakes of the past forever.
And, you know as well as I do that anyone who asks a question gets the same label. Each and every time.
I am not going to call something what it is not. That's what politicians do. I am not a politician. So, I advocate for change in the only way I know how. The fact that we disagree on tactics is just something we disagree on.
Why don't you use your skills and relationships to pull together a meeting of all parties and people interested in seeing our town realize its full potential? I'll help with that in any way I can. I'll participate fully.
Last question...of all the possible ways to communicate with Don, Dwight and I why did you choose blogging?
Jack.....Dwight and Ray and I have discovered FACTS. Those FACTS have been published in various forums. In and of themselves, they are neutral. YNN, the Times Union, the Record and WMHT did not convey these FACTS without a thorough vetting. (We couldn't make these entities say any particular thing, even if we wanted to. But we have been accused of manipulating YNN, the TU, the Record and WMHT.)
ReplyDeleteThose FACTS and the processes and events which contain them involved persons who were active in creating those FACTS. The fact that the FACTS published involved certain persons, does not make the revelation of those FACTS into personal attacks by the FACT discoverers upon the FACT actors.
Of course when one is revealed to be a FACT actor in a questionable scenario, one casts about for excuses for being involved in the FACT action. One of those is "I'm just acting out my culture." Another is that those who discovered the FACTS are out to get me. And therefore the FACT is dismissible.
I just want to look at the numbers on the sewer issue. We have asked for the numbers. Some say the number have yet to be developed. Some are saying that all questions have been answered and we haven't listened. Some are even saying that "you don't get to know." Some are saying that the by-pass option will cost $8 million. That's not what the researched numbers say, but when that fallacious assertion is questioned, we get labeled as making a personal attack. Gimme a break.
The best "guestimates" at this point are that the rehab of the treatment plant (with final change orders and all that) is about $13 million, and the by-pass option is in the neighborhood of $3 million. And there is bond money for most of that. With that kind of difference floating around, we have every right to solid information BEFORE a direction gets set in stone. And you know very well, as Dwight has outlined, that the beginnings of that new direction to the more expensive option was done in secret. Pointing that out and asking for an open and transparent presentation is not a personal attack in any stretch of the imagination.
Jack, are carrying water for those who don't want questions asked? You are imputing motives, just like they are. I have no desire whatsoever to be a Town public officer, but I want those who are to behave in a transparent and accountable manner. The problem here is that the request for transparency and accountability is perceived and characterized as personal attack. Like "I don't have to answer that question because you're out to get me."
Seems to me that the ball is in the Board's court. They are in total control of the agenda. They have done what they have done. Those of us who have asked questions are being blamed for the fact that they have not been accountable or transparent. Doesn't that FACT create some cognitive dissonance for you?
All of us deserve to see the numbers. PERIOD
Ray - In fairness I wasn't the one who chose this blog to have this conversation. It was begun by Gadfly himself on 9/7, 7:04 p.m. when he posted a comment directed at me that was rejected by Talks. Because it was a serious comment I thought it courteous to respond. I assume what you were implying by your question was, in line with Gadfly's point, that I am 'carrying the democrats' water.' Sadly, I always think for myself, write exactly what I believe and sign my full name, first and last, every time. But in your bipolar thinking, if I am not fully on 'your' side than I must be 'fully' on their side. Not really.
ReplyDeleteFacts, even when the word is capitalized, always exist in a context and are subject to interpretation. It may be hard to believe but there really are ways to look at these things other than the ones you come up with. I lack the gift of certitude that seems to guide your outlook and maybe that's a character flaw on my part but keeping an open mind has served me well for a long time. I fully support your asking of questions and I think they are questions that deserve an answer. I think the town board should be more open and responsive and I, too, want a public discussion of the waste water options. My point is that ranting reduces the likelihood of having such a discussion.
I will sign off now on this issue. We should get together and have a talk about all of this because I do agree with the gist of Ray's comment that there is a better way to do this than on a blog. Of course if we get together you will have to sit through some bragging about my granddaughters. What were the odds that the two most beautiful girls ever born would turn out to be my granddaughters? Maybe the reason I always try to look to the sunny side is because I have been very blessed in this life.
Jack, I love your description of the way local government works around here. Let me quote you:
ReplyDelete"A culture of politics develops over a period of years and characteristic ways of doing business evolve. In local politics in the Capital Region that has meant that a small coterie of insiders, organized in democratic and republican committees, take control of local government and run it in a way that best enables them to stay in power. Anyone who has an interest in affecting the course of local government knows to find their way into this system and learns to play the game. That means going to meetings, working on campaigns, supporting the party line, and cultivating connections with business and commercial interests."
It's because things work this way that I believe that the sudden hatching of the sewer alternative to expand infrastructure is suspect, and needs to be defended on the basis of the numbers - with serving the interests of the taxpayers who fund things around here being first on the agenda. I know it is imputing motive, but you have to think about this. Just imagine the money to be made in controlling the letting of contracts in the construction of $10 to $13 million worth of infrastructure as opposed to the possible alternative of something involving maybe $3 to $4 million.
That's a big question that should be on everybody's mind. And that question won't go away until the numbers are crunched in public and all questions answered. Vilifying questioners won't make it go away. Why is the more expensive option (if it is indeed that) in the interests of the taxpayer? And why, as the people who will fund the chosen option, shouldn't we be able to influence the option chosen?
Please tell me if I am reading Mr. Conway correctly - if we are all to blame for everything, then Mr. Conway is responsible, at least in part, for the Watergate Break-In, the Iraq War, hummers in the Oval Office, Fast and Furious, and Solyndra? If so, then I think an apology is in order.
ReplyDeleteAnd if I'm to blame, in part, for East Greenbush Government's comedy of mismanagement, its disdain for transparency, its fast and loose nature with the truth, and its countless shenanigans, maybe someone ought to throw some secret stipends my way, or let me know where all of those scrap metal receipts ran off to, or what was in the transcripts of certain intimidating telephone calls made on Town Time from Town facilities to certain private employers. Come on, I'm responsible - we're all responsible - please let us know.
And by the way, if it's true that Mr. McCabe is back in Town Hall, to help out this current lazy and equally incompetent current Supervisor (or is it to help himself?), will he also go back to using the Town's website as his own personal Face Book page? At least we can then get some one-sided information as opposed to no information whatsoever (44 days and counting since the last questionably informative Supervisor's Report).
Way I hear it is that The supervisor has been busy at work. He has had to deal with a few things from my understandng these past week.
DeleteDwight,Don, and Ray was one of them.
By the way Dwight,Don and Ray. Thank you for the news..
I have no other way of hearing the news here in town.
YOu got them going.. and now everyone else knows of the crap that is overflowing because of Town Halls
inability to correct the problems.
I am glad to see that the history lessons, cultural anthropology discussions and any other distracting conversations are coming to an end. Actually folks, that is really all that has been going on here. It is all very interesting as it goes, but seriously, this colloquy belongs as part of a book club discussion and maybe someone should start one at the library. I'm sick of reading romance novels and quest books.
ReplyDeleteI really don't want to sit down with the Town Board because what I think they really should do is sit down in public with the County and hammer out a solution to this sewer problem. No backroom deals -- just honest solutions without personal gain.
Are the citizens of Half Moon to be faulted because they are upset that Bruce Tanski hooked up his latest development to the sewer lines without permission from the Town? You bet. Just like we are upset that our sewer problem was not fixed years ago and funds were mismanaged and continue to be mismanaged.
The ethics code issue is a perfect illustration of why cooperation does not work in this town, because they will always get there own way.
I will agree with Jack in part that all are responsible for the Town Board’s behavior only insofar as the electorate has not voted the majority out of office. Until that is done, there is no hope of change.
Jack, dude. Didn't you get Kim Halloran's memo?
ReplyDeleteCristo is to lame for everything that is wrong in East Greenbush.
It occurs to me that over the last several months we have called for a bi-lateral discussion at the Town Park, to which Joe LaMountain responded that he could not speak for anyone but himself, with no one from the establishment responding; we have called for discussions privately with the establishment and been met with silence; we have called for public dissemination of the data that supports the expansion plan and again- nothing. Jack, Establishment, Whoever- WE have tried every avenue to have a rational, bi-partisan discussion of how OUR tax money is being spent. Nada. Zip. Zero. Nothing. Is it not obvious to any thinking person what's going on here? Jack, no one in either party wants to talk to us. The facts do make for a real conundrum. Dwight
ReplyDeleteJack & Everyone Else:
ReplyDeleteThis whole thing is not so complicated.
This and our past Town Boards have a long history of not doing what is in the best interests of the town and its taxpayers.
Heck, Jack, you know that perfectly well even if your sense of political correctness prevents you from saying so.
So...the Town Board's decision cannot be defended on the merits of the decision.
And from there the Mike O'Brien's, and others, of the Democratic Committee launch attacks on anyone who questions the bad decisions.
It is no more, and no less, complicated than that. And Jack, you know it. So stop pontificated at Don, Dwight and Ray. Put your big boy, non political pants on and call out the people in the Democratic Committee for what they are and for what they are doing to our town. Only from there can you grow your own credibility.
Dwight "September 7, 2012 5:35 PM"--with all due respect, in the past, I have done each of those things plus more. It got me nowhere thus the reason I gave up trying and thus the reason I prefer to remain anonymous. I appreciate the continued efforts of you, Don and Ray. I had to hault my activities and begin a new life with very different pursuits. In addition, my family life has taken a different direction and it would become nothing but fodder for Talks. They cut through a private family life like a shredder on a Town Hall Shred Day and at this early point with my changes I am not ready to read about my family life on Talks.
ReplyDeleteYou three are appreciated and commended. The more voters know that can be backed up with documentation that is FOILed, the better the case is for voters. The Advertiser is a great place to get the information ball rolling. Contrary to what many think, it is widely read. Why do you think the Dems use it? People read it.
Dear Mr. Conway:
ReplyDeleteI am wondering if you might address the people on Talks and their recent comments in the same way and to the same extent as you have addressed Don, Dwight and Ray?
I am wondering if you might do a comparison of the writings on both blogs and share your analysis with all of us?
If you do we'll look forward to your thoughts and your writing. If you do not we'll know a lot more about you and your motives.
Thank you.
another gadfly faceless challenge because you can't stand it when people disagree with you !! So predictable and pathetic. If you can't take the heat - really - get out of the kitchen !
DeleteI'd just point out to "anonymous-just like 1:15am" that not too long ago, Talks DELETED a good portion of its documentary history. That material contained some of the most vile stuff posted on any blog around here. The managers of Talks think they are anonymous but most of their identities are known. Some wouldn't be posting during working hours if the Supervisor had the brass to implement some computer controls on the terminals at Town Hall.
DeleteAnonymous 9/11 1:15 a.m. - I already did the comparison. Read the last two sentences of the first paragraph of my Sept. 9 11:02 a.m. post above.
ReplyDeleteIt is roughly a week and a half since the T-U article appeared.
ReplyDeleteI have read the T-U end to end and checked their web site every day.
There has no response, no rebuttal, no letters to the editor. No response from anyone challenging the accuracy or factual content of the T-U story. None. One would think that if the T-U were as manipulated by Don, Dwight and I as has been suggested someone over on Talks would have challenged the T-U.
The Talks blog has a commenter who is claiming that all the information around the waste treatment capacity issue has been supplied to taxpayers. And yet that same blogger and the Talks blog itself has also not supplied a single fact. Not one fact.
Mr. Conway has asserted that anger has been, and is, fueling Don, Dwight and I. Whether we are angry or not not no taxpayer should or needs to care? We have confronted the people in power. We have sought answers. And we have given people who care to read this blog something the Town Board never does - a full reporting, honesty, and the facts.
I renew the challenge the entire Talks contingent. Challenge the facts. Defend your position without resorting to name calling. Provide the details and documentation in support of your version of the waste treatment plant capacity debate. Our town wil be all the better for it if you can and will accept this challenge.